Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

[sirlamre]

On another thread, Mill said:

"Millennium wrote:
You have a point...So, thinking your gay and not acting on it still makes you gay? Or does one have to actually perform the act... I can think I'm a smoker, but until I light one up, I am not..."


That made me think of something we've not really debated here ---

the concept of whether God gets mad at you when you DO something wrong, or even when you THINK it.

Granted -- Mills' example of smoking above isn't something that God probably cares about.

So let's frame it in the concept that Mill was responding to --- Gay or lesbian -

Can we also assume for the purposes of this thread that God DOES consider being homosexual a sin?
I know we don't all agree on that --- but it's a whole separate topic.


So ---- if a "reformed" homosexual is NOT actively doing physical sexual acts with someone of their own gender--
but they are THINKING about it --
Are they still instantly committing a SIN in God's eyes?

Or is God only all about the action in this case?

If a gay person is SUCCEEDING at NOT actually doing the deed with someone --- but they find themselves looking at someone of their own gender,
and they think "I want that person"

Did they just commit a SIN and totally reverse their entire "forgiveness"



How do those concepts apply to things like WANTING to kill your neighbor, sleep with his wife, steal his car ??
but you don't DO it ?


What's the difference between these questions if a person is a regular Christian church attender, praying every day and reading the Bible?

Or someone who just tries to be a nicer person, but hasn't done that whole break down in tears at the front of the church and "accept Jesus" in front of everyone?

What's the diff for those two kinds of people when they DO something versus just THINKING about it?

[Millennium]

I can't get God to answer these questions....But, for myself, unless the act is committed and there is a consequence, there is no crime. I know that's not a hard and fast rule, in every instance, (You can be arrested for plotting to blow up a building for example).

[Brian]

I'm not a Christian, but I went to Catholic school. I seem to recall a verse saying something about lust being a sin you commit in your heart, even if you don't act on it. (Obviously, that's not a quote, but I think that's the idea.)

If that's the case, it would suggest to me that one can sin without committing an act. While we're at it, isn't hate itself a sin, in Christian terms?

[24HourNut]

Homosexuality is an orientation, not an act. Simple. If you don't engage in any homosexual acts then you haven't engaged in homosexual acts. You are still involuntarily attracted to the same sex (homosexual). You don't have to be engaging in homosexual acts to fit the definition of homosexual. Just like I don't have to ever have sex with a woman to be heterosexual - that's just my sexual orientation. Orientation is not an act.

[Brian]

Homosexuality is an orientation, not an act. Simple. If you don't engage in any homosexual acts then you haven't engaged in homosexual acts. You are still involuntarily attracted to the same sex (homosexual). You don't have to be engaging in homosexual acts to fit the definition of homosexual. Just like I don't have to ever have sex with a woman to be heterosexual - that's just my sexual orientation. Orientation is not an act.

That wasn't really the question, though. The question was whether or not both the act and the thoughts are sins. The fact that the thought alone makes you a homosexual doesn't necessarily make it a sin by the Christian definition of "sin".

[24HourNut]

Homosexuality is an orientation, not an act. Simple. If you don't engage in any homosexual acts then you haven't engaged in homosexual acts. You are still involuntarily attracted to the same sex (homosexual). You don't have to be engaging in homosexual acts to fit the definition of homosexual. Just like I don't have to ever have sex with a woman to be heterosexual - that's just my sexual orientation. Orientation is not an act.

That wasn't really the question, though. The question was whether or not both the act and the thoughts are sins. The fact that the thought alone makes you a homosexual doesn't necessarily make it a sin by the Christian definition of "sin".

I was responding to Mill's post above. I should have quoted.

As for the sin BS (I say BS because if there is a God, God obviously made homosexuality be an innate, involuntary, predictable, persistent and permanent part of our species), well, it's hard to imagine just being involuntarily attracted to someone of the same sex makes you a sinner since that would guarantee a state of permanent sin with no solution. It also highlights another sinister and archaic aspect of this whole thing - no privacy and tyranny of the mind with 24/7 thought police and punishment after death for having involuntary attraction to one particular gender. The whole thing is ridiculous and based upon a child-like fear and philosophy, but even in the context of that nonsense, I would say that you could be "forgiven of sin" if you never engage in the act. Back then they didn't get a lot of basic crucial stuff, and one of those things is how sexual orientation is involuntary and wired in, and not just an act. That's what makes, for example, Christian Reparative Centers and their agents so annoying and laughable ... they still have that archaic and ignorant failed view.

[Millennium]

Just to throw a wrench into the argument....if there is a God, then there has to be a Devil....Maybe God isn't responsible for the "GAY".....

Like I said....who says God is the one that created the deviant behavior?





Just a question...don't be jumping all over me because of the question.

[Cynicalninja]

Ooooooookay.

So now you hinting that homosexuality (or as you put it "deviant" behaviour) could be the work of the devil?

[Millennium]

I'm not hinting anything...didn't you read what I said? It's just a question to bring into the argument..if there is a God, then there has to be a devil... And Homosexuality is deviant behavior, if you go by the Merriam Websters accepted definition of deviant.

From Websters:


Main Entry: de·vi·ant
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century

~deviating especially from an accepted norm <deviant behavior>



Now I ask you, what is the accepted norm when it comes to sex?
Don't try to pin the definition on me and it fits the definition.

[24HourNut]

Just to throw a wrench into the argument....if there is a God, then there has to be a Devil....Maybe God isn't responsible for the "GAY".....

Like I said....who says God is the one that created the deviant behavior?

Just a question...don't be jumping all over me because of the question.

If there is a God there does not have to be a Devil. God would have to create a Devil if God is all-powerful, all-knowing, makes everything, etc.

If there is a God creating us and responsible for how we are born and our basic nature, then he sure as heck wanted and allowed homosexuality to be a consistent and predictable part of it.