Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby 24HourNut » Tue May 18, 2010 8:44 am

mariej wrote:I believe there is a God that set the universe in motion and doesn't intervene.

That could be true and it does fit with my feeling that God would not require organized worship like some sort of ego maniac.
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby Brian » Tue May 18, 2010 9:42 am

mariej wrote:
Brian wrote:
mariej wrote:I believe there is a God that set the universe in motion and doesn't intervene.


That's the kind of God I could believe in. I think that's pretty reasonable, given the evidence around us. I think such a god would be indifferent to our worship, but it does make some sense to me.

I don't think it would make much sense to worship or pray to such a God for miracles, but I think you can still have admiration and a relationship with such a god. Albert Einstein has some quotes that can sum it up better than me lol.


I could understand admiring such a god, but I don't see having a relationship as a possibility. A relationship entails communication and a certain affinity. If this god could communicate with humans, and was omnipotent, wouldn't it be odd if he didn't intercede on behalf of those he had a relationship with?
"I guess the winter makes you laugh a little slower
Makes you talk a little lower
About the things you could not show her."

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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby mariej » Tue May 18, 2010 10:39 am

Brian wrote:
mariej wrote:
Brian wrote:
mariej wrote:I believe there is a God that set the universe in motion and doesn't intervene.


That's the kind of God I could believe in. I think that's pretty reasonable, given the evidence around us. I think such a god would be indifferent to our worship, but it does make some sense to me.

I don't think it would make much sense to worship or pray to such a God for miracles, but I think you can still have admiration and a relationship with such a god. Albert Einstein has some quotes that can sum it up better than me lol.


I could understand admiring such a god, but I don't see having a relationship as a possibility. A relationship entails communication and a certain affinity. If this god could communicate with humans, and was omnipotent, wouldn't it be odd if he didn't intercede on behalf of those he had a relationship with?
What I meant by relationship is that God has a profound relationship with all of creation and man is part of it and able to experience God through different ways and feel a connection to him. Even though it's not on a personal level where God intervenes in the affairs of humans, I don't have the feeling that such a God is distant and cold.
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby 24HourNut » Tue May 18, 2010 10:43 am

How can you have a "profound relationship" when one person isn't even sure it's a fact that you exist and just have to "believe?"
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby mariej » Tue May 18, 2010 12:56 pm

24HourNut wrote:How can you have a "profound relationship" when one person isn't even sure it's a fact that you exist and just have to "believe?"
If there is a creator, which I believe there is, then I think God has a relationship with all of his creation whether you are aware of it or believe in God or not. We are talking about the creator of the universe here so I couldn't even put into words or fathom that relationship, but I believe we are all connected to God on a grand scale and his existence is revealed through nature which is something we can all experience whether we believe or not.
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby Thermodynamics » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:53 am

sirlamre wrote:It's a particularly Christian narrow view that....

That particular belief of Christians (who are alone in that....

What do you think?
[/quote]

If the Christian view is true, you would expect it to follow all other forms of truth in being "narrow."

The Law of Gravity is a narrow view.
The Law of Cause and Effect is a narrow view.
The Laws of Thermodynamics are narrow views.

You could say "That particular belief of second grade children who got an A on their math test (who are alone in that), is that 2x7=14.

Truth is always narrow and exclusive.
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:10 pm

mariej wrote:
24HourNut wrote:How can you have a "profound relationship" when one person isn't even sure it's a fact that you exist and just have to "believe?"
If there is a creator, which I believe there is, then I think God has a relationship with all of his creation whether you are aware of it or believe in God or not. We are talking about the creator of the universe here so I couldn't even put into words or fathom that relationship, but I believe we are all connected to God on a grand scale and his existence is revealed through nature which is something we can all experience whether we believe or not.


You might be right. All I'm trying to get across is that the relationship isn't "personal" in any real sense. If such a relationship exists, it's more like the relationship between humans and, say, oxygen. Oxygen doesn't care about human beings.
"I guess the winter makes you laugh a little slower
Makes you talk a little lower
About the things you could not show her."

-- Counting Crows, "A Long December"
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:18 pm

Thermodynamics wrote:
sirlamre wrote:It's a particularly Christian narrow view that....

That particular belief of Christians (who are alone in that....

What do you think?


If the Christian view is true, you would expect it to follow all other forms of truth in being "narrow."

The Law of Gravity is a narrow view.
The Law of Cause and Effect is a narrow view.
The Laws of Thermodynamics are narrow views.

You could say "That particular belief of second grade children who got an A on their math test (who are alone in that), is that 2x7=14.

Truth is always narrow and exclusive.[/quote]

Truth isn't always narrow.

Case in point: "Sometimes people don't hear their alarm clocks and oversleep."

That's certainly true, but it's a broad statement. Sometimes people don't oversleep.

Here's another one: "Stars shine brightly."

That's a true statement, but it's certainly not exclusive to stars.

Further, the difference between a religious claim and a scientific one is that a scientific claim is subject to modification. If the Law of Thermodynamics needs to be adjusted -- or even tossed entirely -- that will happen. You don't find that happening with religious ideas, because religious views are exclusive and narrow. There can be no alternative answer to religious dogma -- unless you enjoy broiling at 5 billion degrees for all eternity.
"I guess the winter makes you laugh a little slower
Makes you talk a little lower
About the things you could not show her."

-- Counting Crows, "A Long December"
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby sledge » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:12 am

sirlamre wrote:I decided this perhaps deserved a thread of it's own, so I moved it to here....


In another thread, Brian said the below:

Brian wrote:Unless you've ever been a corpse, you have no idea if there's a God or an afterlife. It's not possible for you to [empirically] know anything about it.
(emphasis mine)


That got me to thinking ---


I'm not sure you'd know for certain if God existed even if you WERE dead.

I think you'd still have just as much of a chance of experiencing human fallibility and the concurrent ability to misunderstand, misperceive,
and see-what-you-want-to-see as we do when alive.

It's a particularly Christian narrow view that
"when you die, you'll instantly understand everything, and no truth or reality will be hidden from you. Everyone will instantly be presented with absolutely irrefutable evidence of what Truth is.
[That is, "truth" according to whatever some particular Christian is telling you this, but as per common practice, expressed as "The Bible says", not "I think the Bible says"]
And, you'll either understand "Truth" and understand (as you fall down into lava) just how badly you screwed up, or (as you put on your halo) how much you were doing JUST what God wanted.



Where is the scripture for 'when you die' .. if you going to bring up quotes like this please give the bible scripture so i can look it up and understand your point better. Looks like a Catholic Church teaching?

No one knows for sure if God Exists or not? That's where faith comes in and understanding the nature of God through his word(the bible) Also Jesus Christ did exist and many witness his ministry other than his 12 Apostles even Roman Historians(non-christians) noted Jesus and that he died on a cross but not the resurrection part.
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Re: Will we instantly know God exists when we die?

Postby 24HourNut » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:43 am

I don't care who wrote or edited what embellished text or not - no one knows what happens when you die and everyone who pretends to know or thinks they have an idea due to their "faith" is delusional at best.
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