Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby Cynicalninja » Fri May 28, 2010 8:23 am

Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Brian wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:Meh.

My bottom line is "whatever can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof".

There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?


But you can get to the bottom of the garden. Anything you can actually investigate, you have no reason to remain agnostic about. You can't investigate the existence of God the same way. You can say that a lot of the things attributed to God in the Middle Ages have scientific explanations, but you can't (currently) dismiss entirely the idea of an afterlife, and it's kind of difficult to solve the infinite regress problem you run into when you try to explain the beginning of existence itself.


But the fairies are invisible like God, yet I KNOW they are there, how do you "investigate" and prove me wrong?



Produce a book that shows and proves for thousands of years people have worshiped your fairies, and you'll be on to something. Other than that, your fairies are no different than Big Foot. Is there a major religion based on your fairies? Are buildings of worship built for your fairies?

God has a lot more going for him, even you have to admit that. Proving God exists is impossible, proving he doesn't is too.

Can you provide generally accepted evidence your fairies exist?...In a court of law they use a Bible, I have yet to see them drag out Grimms Book of Fairy Tales and swear someone in..

Is that prove there is a God?. Nope, but it is generally accepted as evidence.


I agree the God delusion is a bigger and far more popular delusion than they fairy one, to me it is still a delusion none the less, as for fairies, there are people out there who believe in fairies and there are many websites dedicated to this idea. These people believe in the existence of fairies as much as religions believe in God/Gods, and their claims are equally impossible to disprove or debunk.

No book of faith can prove the existence of a God/Gods, anymore than Jurassic Park can prove the existence of cloned dinosaurs roaming around theme park islands.



Again...nobody really cares if you believe or not. Why make such an effort to convert or chastise those that do?...Why is it such an obsession with those that don't believe?

Christianity has a long history, and in fact there is actual history. That is a fact, there are no facts for fairies or UFOs....there is no comparison there at all...UFO's Fairies, Big Foot, all good stories, but nothing like the history or the following of Christianity.

That was a pretty feeble attempt.


The belief that the earth was flat has a long history, the belief the sun revolves around the earth has a long history, the belief that the heart was the centre of human intelligence has a long history, all provably false guff peddled by "wise" men. Religion is the ultimate blind soma for the soul as Ambrose Bierce once wrote:-

Religion - A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

The number of people who class themselves as "without any religious faith" grows year after year, more and more people are reaching the age of logic and reason more quickly, one day in the future we will finally shake free of the shackles of religion and explore the universe as a free and fearless people together, one day.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby Millennium » Fri May 28, 2010 10:42 am

Cynicalninja wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Brian wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:Meh.

My bottom line is "whatever can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof".

There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?


But you can get to the bottom of the garden. Anything you can actually investigate, you have no reason to remain agnostic about. You can't investigate the existence of God the same way. You can say that a lot of the things attributed to God in the Middle Ages have scientific explanations, but you can't (currently) dismiss entirely the idea of an afterlife, and it's kind of difficult to solve the infinite regress problem you run into when you try to explain the beginning of existence itself.


But the fairies are invisible like God, yet I KNOW they are there, how do you "investigate" and prove me wrong?



Produce a book that shows and proves for thousands of years people have worshiped your fairies, and you'll be on to something. Other than that, your fairies are no different than Big Foot. Is there a major religion based on your fairies? Are buildings of worship built for your fairies?

God has a lot more going for him, even you have to admit that. Proving God exists is impossible, proving he doesn't is too.

Can you provide generally accepted evidence your fairies exist?...In a court of law they use a Bible, I have yet to see them drag out Grimms Book of Fairy Tales and swear someone in..

Is that prove there is a God?. Nope, but it is generally accepted as evidence.


I agree the God delusion is a bigger and far more popular delusion than they fairy one, to me it is still a delusion none the less, as for fairies, there are people out there who believe in fairies and there are many websites dedicated to this idea. These people believe in the existence of fairies as much as religions believe in God/Gods, and their claims are equally impossible to disprove or debunk.

No book of faith can prove the existence of a God/Gods, anymore than Jurassic Park can prove the existence of cloned dinosaurs roaming around theme park islands.



Again...nobody really cares if you believe or not. Why make such an effort to convert or chastise those that do?...Why is it such an obsession with those that don't believe?

Christianity has a long history, and in fact there is actual history. That is a fact, there are no facts for fairies or UFOs....there is no comparison there at all...UFO's Fairies, Big Foot, all good stories, but nothing like the history or the following of Christianity.

That was a pretty feeble attempt.


The belief that the earth was flat has a long history, the belief the sun revolves around the earth has a long history, the belief that the heart was the centre of human intelligence has a long history, all provably false guff peddled by "wise" men. Religion is the ultimate blind soma for the soul as Ambrose Bierce once wrote:-

Religion - A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

The number of people who class themselves as "without any religious faith" grows year after year, more and more people are reaching the age of logic and reason more quickly, one day in the future we will finally shake free of the shackles of religion and explore the universe as a free and fearless people together, one day.



In a country where 92% of it's citizens still believe in a God we've done pretty damn well over the years...BUT...
Basically , what you're saying is that the more and more the world gets raunchier and cares less for it's fellow man, the more and more our fellow men are labandoning religion and caring for his fellow man...

Yes..I see your trend...There is no doubt the crime, debauchery and slacker morals are the trend, probably no coincidence.

Sadly, in this case, you're correct.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby 24HourNut » Fri May 28, 2010 11:25 am

Millennium wrote:In a country where 92% of it's citizens still believe in a God we've done pretty damn well over the years...BUT...
Basically , what you're saying is that the more and more the world gets raunchier and cares less for it's fellow man, the more and more our fellow men are labandoning religion and caring for his fellow man...

Yes..I see your trend...There is no doubt the crime, debauchery and slacker morals are the trend, probably no coincidence.

Sadly, in this case, you're correct.


Wrong. In a Country that was mostly religious we've done well DESPITE it. Our Founders, to the dismay of many religious folk, produced a totally secular Constitution. In other words, what is amazing about our story isn't that we are mostly religious, it's that the Founders did some unprecedented things and one of them was putting organized religion in the backseat. In spite of the religious discrimination and, as Jefferson, Adams, and others put it, in spite of the superstition and ignorance, we managed to put the principles of freedom above the personal invisible super daddy feelings of people and their respective cults.

Morals were WORSE as you generally go back in time. Far more slavery, far more brutality, far less democracy, far less freedom, far more ethics based upon ignorance fueled by archaic religion, far more treating women and minorities as second class property, the list goes on.

As the world gradually sheds the shackles of organized religion based upon ignorance a long time ago, the more progress and freedom we can enjoy. Everyone reading this post right now benefits from that unshackling, as every major scientific advance in our history was fought and attempted to be punished by organized religion.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby Cynicalninja » Fri May 28, 2010 12:23 pm

Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Millennium wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
Brian wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:Meh.

My bottom line is "whatever can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof".

There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?


But you can get to the bottom of the garden. Anything you can actually investigate, you have no reason to remain agnostic about. You can't investigate the existence of God the same way. You can say that a lot of the things attributed to God in the Middle Ages have scientific explanations, but you can't (currently) dismiss entirely the idea of an afterlife, and it's kind of difficult to solve the infinite regress problem you run into when you try to explain the beginning of existence itself.


But the fairies are invisible like God, yet I KNOW they are there, how do you "investigate" and prove me wrong?



Produce a book that shows and proves for thousands of years people have worshiped your fairies, and you'll be on to something. Other than that, your fairies are no different than Big Foot. Is there a major religion based on your fairies? Are buildings of worship built for your fairies?

God has a lot more going for him, even you have to admit that. Proving God exists is impossible, proving he doesn't is too.

Can you provide generally accepted evidence your fairies exist?...In a court of law they use a Bible, I have yet to see them drag out Grimms Book of Fairy Tales and swear someone in..

Is that prove there is a God?. Nope, but it is generally accepted as evidence.


I agree the God delusion is a bigger and far more popular delusion than they fairy one, to me it is still a delusion none the less, as for fairies, there are people out there who believe in fairies and there are many websites dedicated to this idea. These people believe in the existence of fairies as much as religions believe in God/Gods, and their claims are equally impossible to disprove or debunk.

No book of faith can prove the existence of a God/Gods, anymore than Jurassic Park can prove the existence of cloned dinosaurs roaming around theme park islands.



Again...nobody really cares if you believe or not. Why make such an effort to convert or chastise those that do?...Why is it such an obsession with those that don't believe?

Christianity has a long history, and in fact there is actual history. That is a fact, there are no facts for fairies or UFOs....there is no comparison there at all...UFO's Fairies, Big Foot, all good stories, but nothing like the history or the following of Christianity.

That was a pretty feeble attempt.


The belief that the earth was flat has a long history, the belief the sun revolves around the earth has a long history, the belief that the heart was the centre of human intelligence has a long history, all provably false guff peddled by "wise" men. Religion is the ultimate blind soma for the soul as Ambrose Bierce once wrote:-

Religion - A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

The number of people who class themselves as "without any religious faith" grows year after year, more and more people are reaching the age of logic and reason more quickly, one day in the future we will finally shake free of the shackles of religion and explore the universe as a free and fearless people together, one day.



In a country where 92% of it's citizens still believe in a God we've done pretty damn well over the years...BUT...
Basically , what you're saying is that the more and more the world gets raunchier and cares less for it's fellow man, the more and more our fellow men are labandoning religion and caring for his fellow man...

Yes..I see your trend...There is no doubt the crime, debauchery and slacker morals are the trend, probably no coincidence.

Sadly, in this case, you're correct.


Morality does not require religious belief.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive to each other.

Morality can be linked to the basic human instinct for survival and the innate desire for the continuation of the human species.

The idea that we will as a species collapse into anarchy and lawlessness without religion is completely bogus.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby Millennium » Fri May 28, 2010 12:24 pm

24HourNut wrote:
Millennium wrote:In a country where 92% of it's citizens still believe in a God we've done pretty damn well over the years...BUT...
Basically , what you're saying is that the more and more the world gets raunchier and cares less for it's fellow man, the more and more our fellow men are labandoning religion and caring for his fellow man...

Yes..I see your trend...There is no doubt the crime, debauchery and slacker morals are the trend, probably no coincidence.

Sadly, in this case, you're correct.


Wrong. In a Country that was mostly religious we've done well DESPITE it. Our Founders, to the dismay of many religious folk, produced a totally secular Constitution. In other words, what is amazing about our story isn't that we are mostly religious, it's that the Founders did some unprecedented things and one of them was putting organized religion in the backseat. In spite of the religious discrimination and, as Jefferson, Adams, and others put it, in spite of the superstition and ignorance, we managed to put the principles of freedom above the personal invisible super daddy feelings of people and their respective cults.

Morals were WORSE as you generally go back in time. Far more slavery, far more brutality, far less democracy, far less freedom, far more ethics based upon ignorance fueled by archaic religion, far more treating women and minorities as second class property, the list goes on.

As the world gradually sheds the shackles of organized religion based upon ignorance a long time ago, the more progress and freedom we can enjoy. Everyone reading this post right now benefits from that unshackling, as every major scientific advance in our history was fought and attempted to be punished by organized religion.


I'll give you credit for one thing, you can really put a twist on a selected view.....While those problems did exist, you can't say they were a direct result of religion, slavery damn sure wasn't, in fact most of the worlds problems were because of the struggle to survive and scratch out a living, just as it is now. When I speak of going back in time, I am referring to modern era, not back to the beginning of time...but keep spinning it. In fact, the progress we have is a direct result of the strive to do better as humans, and the efforts of many to make life easier, it has nothing to do with religion. Your statement of ethics is amazing, I can promise you, that even though you do get the occasional person that has used religion to do wrong, far more people have benefited from religion, than have suffered from it. If that were not the case, religion would have died out far far long ago, people are not going to do something that they think is of no benefit to them. It's hard to argue with a 92% approval rate...but try anyway.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby Cynicalninja » Fri May 28, 2010 12:33 pm

Millennium wrote:It's hard to argue with a 92% approval rate...but try anyway.


A million different surveys a million different approval ratings.

Atheists and agnostics comprise 12% of adults nationwide. (2008)
11% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity (2008).

So on those figures 23% of Americans are non-believers or have a religious faith other than Christianity, so that's a 78% approval rating.

Atheism and agnosticism is on the increase year by year, it's as inevitable as the renaissance or the industrial revolution.

Anyone brave and intelligent enough to ask the important questions are coming up with intellectually unsatisfactory answers.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby Brian » Fri May 28, 2010 12:45 pm

Cynicalninja wrote:A million different surveys a million different approval ratings.

Atheists and agnostics comprise 12% of adults nationwide. (2008)
11% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity (2008).

So on those figures 23% of Americans are non-believers or have a religious faith other than Christianity, so that's a 78% approval rating.

Atheism and agnosticism is on the increase year by year, it's as inevitable as the renaissance or the industrial revolution.

Anyone brave and intelligent enough to ask the important questions are coming up with intellectually unsatisfactory answers.


Statistics are a dangerous thing.

I would be interested to see how that 12% broke down between atheists and agnostics. It's probably also worth asking what people mean when they say they don't believe in God. It's possible to be a spiritual person while not believing in a Big Daddy In the Sky. (In fact, where do Buddhists and animists fit in in the survey?)

On the other hand, I imagine that the number of people who identify themselves as "Christians" probably includes people who are "Christmas Christians" (e.g., people who are only observant on holidays) and many others who don't hold classically Christian beliefs.

Faith is an incredibly personal thing. Trying to get at it by checking off some boxes on a survey is doomed to failure.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby 24HourNut » Fri May 28, 2010 12:48 pm

Millennium wrote:
24HourNut wrote:
Millennium wrote:In a country where 92% of it's citizens still believe in a God we've done pretty damn well over the years...BUT...
Basically , what you're saying is that the more and more the world gets raunchier and cares less for it's fellow man, the more and more our fellow men are labandoning religion and caring for his fellow man...

Yes..I see your trend...There is no doubt the crime, debauchery and slacker morals are the trend, probably no coincidence.

Sadly, in this case, you're correct.


Wrong. In a Country that was mostly religious we've done well DESPITE it. Our Founders, to the dismay of many religious folk, produced a totally secular Constitution. In other words, what is amazing about our story isn't that we are mostly religious, it's that the Founders did some unprecedented things and one of them was putting organized religion in the backseat. In spite of the religious discrimination and, as Jefferson, Adams, and others put it, in spite of the superstition and ignorance, we managed to put the principles of freedom above the personal invisible super daddy feelings of people and their respective cults.

Morals were WORSE as you generally go back in time. Far more slavery, far more brutality, far less democracy, far less freedom, far more ethics based upon ignorance fueled by archaic religion, far more treating women and minorities as second class property, the list goes on.

As the world gradually sheds the shackles of organized religion based upon ignorance a long time ago, the more progress and freedom we can enjoy. Everyone reading this post right now benefits from that unshackling, as every major scientific advance in our history was fought and attempted to be punished by organized religion.


I'll give you credit for one thing, you can really put a twist on a selected view.....While those problems did exist, you can't say they were a direct result of religion, slavery damn sure wasn't, in fact most of the worlds problems were because of the struggle to survive and scratch out a living, just as it is now. When I speak of going back in time, I am referring to modern era, not back to the beginning of time...but keep spinning it. In fact, the progress we have is a direct result of the strive to do better as humans, and the efforts of many to make life easier, it has nothing to do with religion. Your statement of ethics is amazing, I can promise you, that even though you do get the occasional person that has used religion to do wrong, far more people have benefited from religion, than have suffered from it. If that were not the case, religion would have died out far far long ago, people are not going to do something that they think is of no benefit to them. It's hard to argue with a 92% approval rate...but try anyway.


They were fueled, enabled, and condoned by religion. Sometimes they originated with religion. Only religion can make otherwise good people do stupid, cruel, and unfair stuff on that scale. I am not spinning, I thought you meant as far back as the time religions got going. If you mean the modern era your point is even more incorrect and weak. As you go back in time morals are worse - more mistreatment of Blacks, women not deemed worthy enough to vote ... total immoral abuse of power. The more you go back in decades the more immoral treatment you have on people and the more excuse-making for discrimination and cruelty. If you are something besides a White man you generally do not want to live in a past time due to how less moral and fair it was. You are living in a fantasy for the "good ol days" when Blacks, gays, and women were more mistreated and more immoral things went on in general.
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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby 24HourNut » Fri May 28, 2010 12:53 pm

By the way, MANY Christians just identify themselves as that because that is how they were raised. MANY don't go to Church or really subscribe to the dogma, really think the Bible is the word of God, etc. The number of actual people who truly believe is much lower than the stats Mill is producing, especially because many who are basically Agnostic or who don't really practice a religion or claim there is definitely a traditional God may identify themselves as how they were raised.

Even if Mill is 100% right, so what? That doesn't mean it is not a delusion on some level and that it does not produce harm on some level.

Hitchens gets into the harm of it all here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0B-X9LJjs

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Re: Proving God doesn't exist in 3 minutes

Postby 24HourNut » Fri May 28, 2010 1:09 pm

Here is a shorter one ... I think it's an excellent video with Hitchens on morality and religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeWpTjmtgXQ

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