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Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:32 pm
by Millennium
24HourNut wrote:
Millennium wrote:
mariej wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
24HourNut wrote:I don't even see reason to think there is an intervening God, otherwise we get into all sorts of problems.


We sure do...


Perhaps God set the earth in motion through evolution? It wouldn't make any sense to intervene in evolution, it wouldn't be evolution anymore. I'm not sure that would make God maleovent, however. If there is a God then it's incomprehensible in human understanding, therefore it makes no sense to apply human ideas and views onto God.



Good post Marie. :thumbleft:


Exactly ... which is why it sounds so childish and absurd to so many of us when we hear people say things like homosexuality is against God and homosexuals will be punished after death. In other words, the absurdity and arrogance of organized religion.



Both sides are pretty arrogant, I've met quite a few arrogant atheists. If you don't know there is a God, and you don't, then you can't be sure of anything you "think" he disapproves of.

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:06 pm
by mariej
Millennium wrote:
24HourNut wrote:
Millennium wrote:
mariej wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
24HourNut wrote:I don't even see reason to think there is an intervening God, otherwise we get into all sorts of problems.


We sure do...


Perhaps God set the earth in motion through evolution? It wouldn't make any sense to intervene in evolution, it wouldn't be evolution anymore. I'm not sure that would make God maleovent, however. If there is a God then it's incomprehensible in human understanding, therefore it makes no sense to apply human ideas and views onto God.



Good post Marie. :thumbleft:


Exactly ... which is why it sounds so childish and absurd to so many of us when we hear people say things like homosexuality is against God and homosexuals will be punished after death. In other words, the absurdity and arrogance of organized religion.



Both sides are pretty arrogant, I've met quite a few arrogant atheists. If you don't know there is a God, and you don't, then you can't be sure of anything you "think" he disapproves of.


Well you can feel it in your heart, it's something most people are born with. Deliberately harming another being is just wrong and most of us can feel it, but conscenting adults and survival don't fall into that category.

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:39 am
by Brian
mariej wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
24HourNut wrote:I don't even see reason to think there is an intervening God, otherwise we get into all sorts of problems.


We sure do...


Perhaps God set the earth in motion through evolution? It wouldn't make any sense to intervene in evolution, it wouldn't be evolution anymore. I'm not sure that would make God maleovent, however. If there is a God then it's incomprehensible in human understanding, therefore it makes no sense to apply human ideas and views onto God.


God seting the Earth in motion through evolution makes sense, but God operating with a morality which is outside human understanding doesn't. Why would God create a set of rules for us that are in conflict with the ones he himself uses? Why not just reveal the real rules, so that the universe doesn't appear capricious?

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:24 am
by 24HourNut
Millennium wrote:
24HourNut wrote:
Millennium wrote:
mariej wrote:
Cynicalninja wrote:
24HourNut wrote:I don't even see reason to think there is an intervening God, otherwise we get into all sorts of problems.


We sure do...


Perhaps God set the earth in motion through evolution? It wouldn't make any sense to intervene in evolution, it wouldn't be evolution anymore. I'm not sure that would make God maleovent, however. If there is a God then it's incomprehensible in human understanding, therefore it makes no sense to apply human ideas and views onto God.



Good post Marie. :thumbleft:


Exactly ... which is why it sounds so childish and absurd to so many of us when we hear people say things like homosexuality is against God and homosexuals will be punished after death. In other words, the absurdity and arrogance of organized religion.



Both sides are pretty arrogant, I've met quite a few arrogant atheists. If you don't know there is a God, and you don't, then you can't be sure of anything you "think" he disapproves of.


Not believing in something others made up isn't arrogance, it's called reasoning and rationality. Nothing beats the absurdity and arrogance of organized religion and people who claim to know a God's details (God wants this from you, God likes this, God punishes that, and all the other detail BS they pretend to know or want to impose upon others).

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:04 pm
by sirlamre
Getting back on topic --
We can debate all day about whether God said something or had any right to say something or whether we should believe that there is a God who did say something...

Brian said:
"If that's the case, it would suggest to me that one can sin without committing an act. While we're at it, isn't hate itself a sin, in Christian terms?"

That's what I recall -- for Christians who believe and practice, it's as much a sin to THINK about something you know is wrong, as it is to DO it.
Because either way, you're focussed on something God doesn't like -- acting and thinking are one and the same in the context.

I think the idea is to purify one's thoughts -- and steer away from thinking judgemental un-loving thoughts about others --
to try to "see God" in each person, and not be so focussed on their failings that we want to hate them.
(Yes Frank, I know and agree that many Christians do nothing BUT judge == welcome to why I am a Baha'i and not a Christian)

Or, to be so un-focussed on the spiritual world that we're overly concerned with the physical (sexual) world.

At the most fundamental level, it's about what IS our focus === Christians (and Muslims, amont others) have evolved those concepts into a massive set of rules to follow, mostly couched in terms of
"do not" sorts of things -- rather than having a primary focus on "do", they set their focus on "do not"

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:15 pm
by Millennium
sirlamre wrote:Getting back on topic --
We can debate all day about whether God said something or had any right to say something or whether we should believe that there is a God who did say something...

Brian said:
"If that's the case, it would suggest to me that one can sin without committing an act. While we're at it, isn't hate itself a sin, in Christian terms?"

That's what I recall -- for Christians who believe and practice, it's as much a sin to THINK about something you know is wrong, as it is to DO it.
Because either way, you're focussed on something God doesn't like -- acting and thinking are one and the same in the context.

I think the idea is to purify one's thoughts -- and steer away from thinking judgemental un-loving thoughts about others --
to try to "see God" in each person, and not be so focussed on their failings that we want to hate them.
(Yes Frank, I know and agree that many Christians do nothing BUT judge == welcome to why I am a Baha'i and not a Christian)

Or, to be so un-focussed on the spiritual world that we're overly concerned with the physical (sexual) world.

At the most fundamental level, it's about what IS our focus === Christians (and Muslims, amont others) have evolved those concepts into a massive set of rules to follow, mostly couched in terms of
"do not" sorts of things -- rather than having a primary focus on "do", they set their focus on "do not"


I find it hard to believe God would judge you just as harshly if you "think" about killing someone, rather than actually killing someone... :scratch:

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:49 pm
by Brian
Millennium wrote:I find it hard to believe God would judge you just as harshly if you "think" about killing someone, rather than actually killing someone... :scratch:


I don't understand that either, Mill, but I have heard Christians (and Christian leaders) say exactly that, as part of Christian doctrine. In a bizarre way, it makes sense, in the context of Protestantism. Protestantism doesn't have a Purgatory, so there's no "middle" punishment. All there is (as far as I can tell) is eternal punishment for any sin. Therefore, if you sin in any way (and don't have forgiveness, of course), you're just screwed.

Or am I missing something?

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:01 pm
by 24HourNut
I've heard plenty of Christians say you are guilty of lust and sinning if you just think of screwing that hot babe in the bikini. Apparently, God = thought police, zero privacy.

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:59 pm
by Brian
24HourNut wrote:Apparently, God = thought police, zero privacy.


Well, that's obvious, isn't it? The Christian God is omniscient, and you can't be omniscient without knowing everyone's thoughts.

Re: Actions versus thoughts and "righteousness"

PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:10 pm
by 24HourNut
Brian wrote:
24HourNut wrote:Apparently, God = thought police, zero privacy.


Well, that's obvious, isn't it? The Christian God is omniscient, and you can't be omniscient without knowing everyone's thoughts.


What's obvious is how ridiculous it is to think you will be punished for just thinking of sinning or fantasizing about things that are sins. If God is that maniacal and extreme, he needs to go harass some other dimension or something.